I’m sorry to do this to you but I would greatly appreciate guys that have been there done that to bear with me.
I’ve been in various business’ for the past 25 years so I’m not new to business but am extremely green to the CNC world. I’m looking to get into firearm manufacturing, mostly AR uppers and lowers with some 1911 stuff mixed in. I cannot see this being a high volume venture to start out.
I originally looked at the Tormach for its entry-level pricing of $20K and small footprint but then was swayed towards a Haas Super Mini Mill and then to the Tool Room TM-2P at about $45k-55K in that order.
I then saw Titan brought in a Tormach and I get that each machine has its place, I guess I’m more wondering if I would be spending unnecessary money on the front end that could be used for marketing or whatnot.
I also understand that if all goes well I would have to buy the bigger machine anyway BUT cashflow is king in the business world and we would have a nice chunk available if it isn’t spent on the front end.
In closing I’ve heard you can hold .001 or less on the Tormach but it takes a bit more work than the larger machines.
Haas was running a special on the Mini mill for 25K. I don’t know enough about Tormach to chime in on them. But I know that HAAS will do exactly what you need with no issues. I have been using multiple machines over the last 10 years and the ones I like in order Haas, Mazak, Okuma.
Bigger is better! If you by the small Tormach you might find it takes 2 to 3 times longer to make your parts. Cash may be king but time is money.
I did see were Titan bought the Tormach I cant speak for him but my understanding is he bought it to show that you can learn on a small machine. He also bought a mill with more options better axis motors for more accurate positioning. Feeds, speeds And dept of cut had to be greatly reduced to make the Titan M1. If you are in the Face book group you will get a better response to this question.
MIkeJones86 - Thank you for the reply, I have an appointment with the local Okuma guys this week. Not sure I want to bite that much off in the beginning. I really do appreciate the insight.
Rumpelstiltskin - Thank you for the reply, I have watched his videos on it and would also get their best offerings. I also was reading the comments on the videos last night (sometimes you learn more in the comment section) and someone made a comment about the tools cost more than the machine so I started reading up on that and the Kennametal tool kit looks to be a good start.
I have no issues buying good tooling. And your comment about time is money doesn’t fall on deaf ears either. But in the beginning when we’ll have the machine sitting idle most of the time I’m not sure it matters if it takes a bit longer. Just a thought though.
I’m going to chime in from someone that is already in the firearm business and answer a few questions that you are not asking. It wasn’t clear whether you already have your FFL for manufacturing and ITAR items already taken care of so I’ll assume that you have and if you haven’t check there as it might change your mind before you even get started. As far as I know you can’t get a “Kitchen Table FFL” for manufacturing anymore so you will also need to budget for a commercial space and all that comes with that. Seeing that forgings for lowers go for about $25 each and you can buy complete lowers for about $40, your going to really need to do huge volume to make this work and huge volume is going to require at least a 4 axis machine. The Tormach will get the job done, but if you can only produce 3-4 lowers/hour, I don’t see how you would pay your rent, your utilities, your equipment costs and yourself.
Either of the HAAS machines that you mentioned will easily do the work, but are hardly high volume production machines either and now you are looking at a lease payment probably in the $600 - $1000/month catagory.
If you are looking for CNC applications in the firearm industry that do not require all of the licensing and red tape, then I would look into Slide machining (Red Dot sight cuts, custom slide milling, optic mounts…) and accessories that do not require handling the actual serialized firearm part.
I use a PCNC100 to do RMR cuts, dovetail cuts, custom slide cuts and engraving and it works well. It is really great for prototyping new design ideas.
However, for me in California, I can make more money working at In-n-Out Burgers than I could machining AR parts.
There is a guy over your way that went tormach - haas - another haas - another haas - another haas and a tormach 440 then to one horizontal, in the spaces off a few years at home, it can be done if you put the hours in and make muzzle breaks, trigger guards, hand grips and any other item that can fly out the door and is quick to make.
I agree, there is money to be made and IMO non-regulated parts would be a good place for a start-up. I’d start with a Tormach, let the machine pay for itself and develop your design and marketing. Once you are positive cash flowave and have a feel as to your production path, look at jumping into a full size professional grade machine.
Thank you Mark,
I have 5K sqft of commercial space that I’m not using all of it in the warehouse. I also see the value in the non-regulated parts. AR parts will not be our only focus. Since I posted this I’m also looking at the Sharp models. When I priced out the Tormach I keep getting around $33K so it’s not that much more of a stretch to the Haas or the like.
Hi Michael,
You are welcome. Having space already covered totally changes the equation. Now the discussion is more about incremental dollars to profit rather than a start up.
I wasn’t thinking about a $33k tormach, I was thinking about a $10k Tormach. Again, my error, sorry. If I was budgeting $30-40k for a machine, then I’d probably be looking at a HAAS, but spending that amount of money requires a total commitment in perhaps an unknown market.
Because my experience in CNC machining is very limited, I’d rather start off with a no frills $10k machine, with very few bells and whistles, learn my market, learn the operating skills required and work toward outgrowing that machine, then once I have a know product, known market and known volume, the choice of the next machine to upgrade into for full production pretty much picks itself. You can always sell a used lightly optioned Tormach and not lose much money when you outgrow it.
Yes, it did. Here are the specs.
25x15x20 Travels
30x16 Table
4-24" Spindle nose to Table
Spindle Taper Big Plus ISO No. 4o
Spindle Speed 10K RPM
Motor 15/10 Hp
Torque 54ftlbs
Side mount 20 tool double arm
945 IPM Rapids
500 IPM Feed Rate
6,200 lbs
You will not be disappointed in your choice that machine is a chip Slinger. I worked in the shop that that’s all they had was milltronics there are beasts congratulations. Make sure that you purchase the big plus tool holders that fit that spindle. There is supposed to be something about getting a discount when you buy a new machine on tool holders. You might make a post about that I’m not sure how it works. @TylerHamlin I bet can help with that informstion.